The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Weekly reports of Modmin actions, decisions etc.
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PeruvianSpice
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby PeruvianSpice » 14 Mar 2015, 01:03

I still think you can express dislike in a way that's respectful and it's not hurtful

Some people here, like the girls as if they were part of their family... so if a "fan" goes and said vile things, you can't expect fans to react...

We've all said harsh things sometimes but some of the replies really seemed leaded with venom and hatred...

I'm glad Dreamless was banned... and about the other one, hopefully he can act in a more adult way (without changing his views on the girls)
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby JimmyLo » 14 Mar 2015, 01:47

PeruvianSpice wrote:I still think you can express dislike in a way that's respectful and it's not hurtful

Some people here, like the girls as if they were part of their family... so if a "fan" goes and said vile things, you can't expect fans to react...

We've all said harsh things sometimes but some of the replies really seemed leaded with venom and hatred...

I'm glad Dreamless was banned... and about the other one, hopefully he can act in a more adult way (without changing his views on the girls)


Exactly - you can totally not like someone all you want, but to go out of your way to hurt their feelings (for no real reason at all) calling them cruel and awful (especially after you've been warned), is just NOT what we come here for.
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Stas » 14 Mar 2015, 09:15

Some users on this forum use the f-word almost in every sentence (clearly because of lack of vocabulary) and I'm fine with it, but if that rule would stand out, they would have been banned ages ago.
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Jay » 14 Mar 2015, 11:24

Note the "Swearwords are fine" element of the rule! Although personally I think there's a vagueness to that rule that could probably do with some clarifying. I think it's really all about the context they're used in. If those words were used in a deliberately aggressive way/as threatening behaviour, towards other members, then it would be an issue.

Also the reports system strongly comes into play. The team can't have its eyes everywhere on the forum, so we miss some things, or overlook things if there doesn't appear to be a problem/issue. Anyone who considers a post to be highly offensive to themselves or to others, can use the report facility to bring that/those post(s) to the team's attention. Then we collectively decide whether any action needs to be taken, or not. There was certainly a LOT of reports about Dreamless, so we couldn't turn a blind eye there - and the context of his posts were unacceptable, in accordance to the rules here. Then he defied the warnings by continuing to behave in the same way, so it lead to the ban.
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Vomiting Porpoise » 14 Mar 2015, 13:24



goodbye dreamless doll x
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Mr.X » 14 Mar 2015, 15:56

Jay wrote:Note the "Swearwords are fine" element of the rule! Although personally I think there's a vagueness to that rule that could probably do with some clarifying. I think it's really all about the context they're used in. If those words were used in a deliberately aggressive way/as threatening behaviour, towards other members, then it would be an issue.

Also the reports system strongly comes into play. The team can't have its eyes everywhere on the forum, so we miss some things, or overlook things if there doesn't appear to be a problem/issue. Anyone who considers a post to be highly offensive to themselves or to others, can use the report facility to bring that/those post(s) to the team's attention. Then we collectively decide whether any action needs to be taken, or not. There was certainly a LOT of reports about Dreamless, so we couldn't turn a blind eye there - and the context of his posts were unacceptable, in accordance to the rules here. Then he defied the warnings by continuing to behave in the same way, so it lead to the ban.


Yep totally get it in regards to Dreamless even though I still think removing the little idiot was extreme.

But my point still stands for LeSerpentaCanta. Those posts certainly didn't warrant a warning and if someone complained about it, then those people should think twice rather than hiding behind a computer and only wanting 'clean' writings on the forum. You don't have to read those comments you know? You can just ignore them.
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Jay » 15 Mar 2015, 05:28

Nevertheless the nature of his posts are still going against the rules set out in the 'behaviour on the forum' thread! Dennis wrote that thread, and he runs this place, so what he says has to be followed. And like I said, there's a difference between expressing dislike towards a popstar, and writing some of the things he has written - he's going way too far unnecessarily. Not just about Geri, but Melanie C too. I'm pretty sure he's trying to shock for the sake of it. Either that or he's particularly sad for being this angry about the Spice Girls.
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Mr.X » 15 Mar 2015, 20:09

So what I was saying about dictatorship is valid. Thank you for confirming this.
So in quite the anarchic spirit against authoritarian and totalitarian patriarchy, I leave this here:

I think it reeks of shitness that we have a 'behaviour on the forum' thread that implies that his opinions are to be constructed in a manner deemed 'acceptable' to the board. Acceptable my fucking arse. I am a member of this forum. I assume to have a right to express myself the way I want to. If that includes swearing and showcasing myself as sad for caring or disliking someone, then so fucking be it. If anyone has a problem with it, let's chat about it and maybe I can change my opinion. Don't just ban me, or 'warn me'. Let's talk.

Cultivating an attitude of 'the mods are looking and if you step out of line they will ban you' is disgusting. That is, once again, authoritarian. Your job is to 'moderate the board' not to ban its members or warn them just because others are upset with the comments. We are all grown ups here, this is no fucking playground.

However, if rules like that fucking stupid rule exist, and if I am to be punished because I 'damaged sensitivities' of someone in this forum, even if it wasn't directed at them in the first place, then who ever made that rule is a fucking arse and has none of my respect or interest.

Feel free to ignore this, or to ban me too. Or to give me a warning. I couldn't give the slightest fucking shit about your fucking rules and I don't want to be a part of it. A good community is build in accordance to what the community as a whole decides what is best, not what a small group within that community decides for the rest.

Where the fuck is freedom of speech? Why the fuck have we been reduced to 'talking nicely' and 'without swear words'? I fucking hate PC and I have no time or patience for it. The way I express myself is my prerogative and if I am not allowed to express myself, then I would rather not deal with this forum any longer.

Fuck this. Fuck Geri Halliwell, and all the fans who think the world revolves not only around the Spice Girls but also around themselves and their 'appropriate language'.
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Jay » 15 Mar 2015, 21:26

:( I'm really surprised by your reactions to this, tbh. It's rule #1 on this forum, in bold: "1. Freedom of speech applies, but has its limits". I'm sure that rule must have been up there since 2004 at least? The 'behaviour on the forum' thread goes hand and hand with this. We're not telling anyone to only blindly worship the girls and anything less is warn worthy. Not at all. Constructive criticism is appreciated and fine, negative comments are fine if they're at least from a respectful place. What LaSerpentaCanta has written is to spread hate & to troll, clearly. Meanwhile Dreamless was being abusive towards members here.

You're going to have to take this up with admin if you're unhappy with the rules as they are, because I'm just following the role that is expected of me (and bearing the brunt of it...). The rules aren't made by me, but I personally agree with them. These DenDen rules have been in place for well over a decade, why the dissension now? :confused: Honestly I don't get it at all. All this drama for the sake of two trolls?

I don't think there can ever be total freedom of speech on a forum. It's all very well to feel entitled to be able to say absolutely anything here, on a forum you don't host or pay for. At the end of the day, anything that goes against the rules is stuff to take action on. The rules aren't there for the sake of it, they're there because they're necessary. Any members showing blatant & constant disregard to these rules will get warned, and eventually banned if there's no change in attitude. It's in extreme cases. It's not something we do for the hell of it and have a laugh about it... we do it with the view that ultimately it's for the best, for the board and for the members. It's an action we're doing for you guys, not ourselves. That's what moderating is all about...
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby JimmyLo » 15 Mar 2015, 21:50

Honestly, what's done is done. Rules were violated, whether you agree with the rules or not. Take it up with Dennis or Mama Dee if you disagree with what happened here.

I, for one, am way too old for the nonsense. I trust, from what I've read here, that majority of the members active on the board agrees with that notion. So, it's time to move on and not get so worked up about a member getting banned. That's his problem alone.

Jay was just doing his job, which he volunteers to do. Under that scope, it's not really fair to try and make him feel crappy for doing his job. If you want change, then take it up privately with the people who actually MADE the rules in the first place. Either that, or just don't participate any more. Why play the game if you think the rules are so questionable? No one's forcing you. There's really no need to have this insane meltdown.
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Mr.X » 15 Mar 2015, 22:56

That post was not directed at Jay, who I think is only doing his job and whom I have shown love and appreciation a lot. It was directed at the system of this forum and I stand by it. Nor was it directly about JimmyLo, whom I have supported in his quest against the trolls.

To put it more eloquently, I am criticising the game, not the player. A game I have also been playing and this time I noticed that there are some issues with it that I don't agree with. So I used language that I don't often use to prove a point. But these trolls are people too and surely we can do better as a community and work with them rather than resulting to warnings and bans. We can engage in dialogue, which is what I did privately. It didn't work with Dreamless and he eventually got banned and I have already stated that I don't have a problem with that anymore, as I think that he was too extreme.

To be honest, I always thought that Dreamless was a recent addition to the forum, but since he has been a troll here for a decade (which I totally didn't see or noticed), it was time for him to go, specially after we tried. But I still stand about the other one. If we are in a position of power, it is our responsibility to use that power to work with the members to make them see differently.

This is the mods forum right? Isn't here that we are supposed to comment on actions of the forum for the sake of the greater good?

Again, this is no meltdown. I was illustrating a point.
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Becca » 15 Mar 2015, 23:02

Mr.X wrote:If anyone has a problem with it, let's chat about it and maybe I can change my opinion. Don't just ban me, or 'warn me'. Let's talk.

We are all grown ups here, this is no fucking playground.

However, if rules like that fucking stupid rule exist, and if I am to be punished because I 'damaged sensitivities' of someone in this forum, even if it wasn't directed at them in the first place, then who ever made that rule is a fucking arse and has none of my respect or interest.

Feel free to ignore this, or to ban me too. Or to give me a warning. I couldn't give the slightest fucking shit about your fucking rules and I don't want to be a part of it. A good community is build in accordance to what the community as a whole decides what is best, not what a small group within that community decides for the rest.

Where the fuck is freedom of speech? Why the fuck have we been reduced to 'talking nicely' and 'without swear words'? I fucking hate PC and I have no time or patience for it. The way I express myself is my prerogative and if I am not allowed to express myself, then I would rather not deal with this forum any longer.

Fuck this. Fuck Geri Halliwell, and all the fans who think the world revolves not only around the Spice Girls but also around themselves and their 'appropriate language'.


Yes, let's talk. Do you realize that it makes you incredibly difficult to "talk" to when your idea of talking includes vomiting obscenities at will? You are allowed to swear. I throw around vulgar language every once in a while myself - but I do so in a way that allows my input to be somewhat constructive to an overall conversation - not in a way that makes the best effort to SQUASH the conversation. It is clear by the final statement you've made here... "Fuck this... Fuck Geri Halliwell..." that you're straight up DONE. How do you expect anyone to TALK to you with that kind of contribution? You can't.

Perhaps you already feel defeated? Has Jay made you feel like you're not allowed to have an opinion? As far as I can tell, he was honest with you about the foundation of the rules and how we as moderators work to enforce them. I can PROMISE you that we do not use our jobs to dictate anything. By moderating a forum (which hasn't REALLY had to be done until recently), our job is to maintain a relatively moderate, somewhat spicy, but still inviting environment for everyone. Historically, this place has had thousands of members, MANY of whom have struggled emotionally with issues that are out of our control. Words can be hurtful, and if all we can do is moderate how people talk to each other, then so be it. It's not our job to protect every lonely person with a computer screen and a keyboard who wants to participate in an online community with some sense of safety, but if we can make a difference for a few people (and no we're NOT all adults here, although we are in the majority), then it's worth it.

And now you may continue with your freedom of speech. Within your limits. Have a lovely day.
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Dennis » 15 Mar 2015, 23:04

Mr.X;

Please READ the topic Behaviour on the forums / The roots of DenDen

DenDen origins from a perspective where a Spice fan could not discuss the girls without ridiculment and idiots ruining the fun because of shity moderation. The forum was started to build a "save harbor" to allow this kind of discussion with likeminded people.

So it's the very core of this forum that certain negativity and trashy attitude is frowned upon here, there's many better places than DenDen to do that on, and which you might find more fitting if you don't agree with this.

Jay handled these situations very professionally - to an extent I myself would not have bothered, with such blatantly disruptive posts. He has my full support, and if the doesn't have yours - tough shit!

DenDen has fairly democratic rules compared to other forums. There was always elections among members on who should moderate this forum, many rules are the result of a democratic process where things were discussed, but at the end, it's my name in the imprint, it's my name on the server bill, it's me who gets nasty letters from lawyers regarding certain topics, so if you can't accept that this also means that I am the person who also has a say in what the general approach to moderation should be, you are free to leave this totalitarian system and try your luck elsewhere.

I think I speak for the whole team when I say we stand behind Jay and fully trust his decisions because I have never yet experienced any action from him I didn't wholeheartedly support. You're free to disagree, but you shouldn't be such an arrogant prick about it if you can't be bothered to understand what DenDen is meant to be about!
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Becca » 15 Mar 2015, 23:04

Mr.X wrote:That post was not directed at Jay, who I think is only doing his job and whom I have shown love and appreciation a lot. It was directed at the system of this forum and I stand by it. Nor was it directly about JimmyLo, whom I have supported in his quest against the trolls.

To put it more eloquently, I am criticising the game, not the player. A game I have also been playing and this time I noticed that there are some issues with it that I don't agree with. So I used language that I don't often use to prove a point. But these trolls are people too and surely we can do better as a community and work with them rather than resulting to warnings and bans. We can engage in dialogue, which is what I did privately. It didn't work with Dreamless and he eventually got banned and I have already stated that I don't have a problem with that anymore, as I think that he was too extreme.

To be honest, I always thought that Dreamless was a recent addition to the forum, but since he has been a troll here for a decade (which I totally didn't see or noticed), it was time for him to go, specially after we tried. But I still stand about the other one. If we are in a position of power, it is our responsibility to use that power to work with the members to make them see differently.

This is the mods forum right? Isn't here that we are supposed to comment on actions of the forum for the sake of the greater good?

Again, this is no meltdown. I was illustrating a point.


A ha. Okay... see... now we can talk. :) I appreciate your clarification. I'm sure Jay will as well.
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Mr.X » 15 Mar 2015, 23:10

Thank you!

Now, if that type of discourse had been applied to dealing with LaSerpentaCanta, perhaps we wouldn't have been having this discussion.
As I mention above in my post AFTER the one you quoted, I used that statement to illustrate my point and by replying the way you did, it illustrates what I was getting at: discussion about behaviour, rather than the system of banning and warning. Perhaps if we had had similar discussions with them, things would have gone differently?!

I too don't appreciate his language, and if you look at my history of posting, it is clear that I distance myself from it, but I cannot stand for the current system that we have. I think it is unethical and unnecessary. Again, please don't see this as a direct attack on any members, it is an attack on the system.
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Mr.X » 15 Mar 2015, 23:13

ah we replied at the same time, sorry about that Becca x
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby daredavid » 15 Mar 2015, 23:14

I've been here for years and years too, even though I've always been more of a reader than a poster, but I completely agree with Mr X's remarks - this is a total dictatorship, and an absurd one for that matter. No wonder this place has gone downhill and lost 3/4 of its members.. To be honest I'd also prefer to stop posting than to continue to be part of such an arbitrary community..
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby daredavid » 15 Mar 2015, 23:18

JimmyLo wrote:I, for one, am way too old for the nonsense. I trust, from what I've read here, that majority of the members active on the board agrees with that notion. So, it's time to move on and not get so worked up about a member getting banned. That's his problem alone.


Sorry but you're one of the first to create a drama around the smallest things and one of the first to always complain and be affected by every single comment or person who dislikes you and your work or by every single person or opinion who disagrees with you - your insecurities or whatever you want to call them seem to speak louder than your words
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Mr.X » 15 Mar 2015, 23:21

Dennis wrote:Mr.X;

Please READ the topic Behaviour on the forums / The roots of DenDen

DenDen origins from a perspective where a Spice fan could not discuss the girls without ridiculment and idiots ruining the fun because of shity moderation. The forum was started to build a "save harbor" to allow this kind of discussion with likeminded people.

So it's the very core of this forum that certain negativity and trashy attitude is frowned upon here, there's many better places than DenDen to do that on, and which you might find more fitting if you don't agree with this.

Jay handled these situations very professionally - to an extent I myself would not have bothered, with such blatantly disruptive posts. He has my full support, and if the doesn't have yours - tough shit!

DenDen has fairly democratic rules compared to other forums. There was always elections among members on who should moderate this forum, many rules are the result of a democratic process where things were discussed, but at the end, it's my name in the imprint, it's my name on the server bill, it's me who gets nasty letters from lawyers regarding certain topics, so if you can't accept that this also means that I am the person who also has a say in what the general approach to moderation should be, you are free to leave this totalitarian system and try your luck elsewhere.

I think I speak for the whole team when I say we stand behind Jay and fully trust his decisions because I have never yet experienced any action from him I didn't wholeheartedly support. You're free to disagree, but you shouldn't be such an arrogant prick about it if you can't be bothered to understand what DenDen is meant to be about!


Hi Dennis.
Glad you got involved in this discussion. Again, this was not an attack on Jay and I have made that very clear.

I totally understand that this forum was built upon the intention of creating a safe haven to those who would like to comment on Spice-related things. Also, I totally understand that this forum has since expanded into other areas, throughout the years. But I wouldn't be ok with being 'behave like us or fuck off' as what I am trying to explain is that perhaps some forms of dealing with certain members might not be completely appropriate. I am not against the forum as a whole, but were you ever completely happy with every party you were a part of? Sometimes you can see things that you would like to change and propose that change.

Surely, if we want to create a safe environment, we also have to allow for discourse and disruption, try to understand it and work with it to try and convince them otherwise. Becca and Jays most recent posts are an illustration of this, clearly, and that was my intention here, as I have stated.

I come from a place that refutes notions of warnings and banning, and proposes dialogue for change. That is all I am getting at.
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby daredavid » 15 Mar 2015, 23:24

+1 to Mr X, who seems to be the only reasonable person here...
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Jay » 15 Mar 2015, 23:32

daredavid, is there a reason why you share the same IP address as banned member Dreamless? :)
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Mr.X » 16 Mar 2015, 00:02

lol... daredavid, if that is true, then you are completely in the wrong here. Context, my dear, think of context.
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby daredavid » 16 Mar 2015, 00:10

Yes there is - and Dreamless is in fact the reason why I joined these forums in the first place 8 years ago. If you happen to take a look at my post history, you will notice that even though I've never had an active participation, I've always enjoyed replying and reading what others have to say about subjects and topics that interest me. I don't necessarily approve of Dreamless' posts, and every time they've said something offensive to a member whose contributions to the boards I've appreciated throughout the years, I've been the first to reach out and tell them that while they're rude remarks indeed, they shouldn't take them on a personal level or be offended by them. As hilarious as Dreamless might find those things, and as much as I agree that banning is a necessary step whenever someone comes to disrupt and intoxicate the flow and the chemistry of a community, I also happen to think that there are arbitrary actions; and that's where I agree with Mr X. I've never asked for Dreamless or anyone else to be un-banned because I certainly don't care. But I know it comes from a stupid place, so it doesnt bother me. Freedom of speech has its regulations and limits, yes. I get it. And I wholeheartedly agree. But it's the internet, for god's sake. And it's up to each and every single person to decide what to do and whether to use your intelligence, your talents, your time, or whatever you want, for something positive or for something negative. I personally chose to use it for something positive. If others dont then it's not my fault, but I can't decide that for them, just like no one can decide for me..
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby daredavid » 16 Mar 2015, 00:14

And yes, I continue to agree with Mr X... it's about context, about coherence, about maturity, and about the possibility to settle things and work them out through dialogue and conversation. Not particularly by imposition, which is what's being done here. And I'm not speaking about Dreamless in particular. I'm speaking in general terms. There are very dramatic and over the top members here. So what if I or anyone disagrees with them tomorrow and a discussion starts, are we all going to get banned because someone reacted differently and are we all going to get cut off abruptly without having the chance to state our reasons and do something about it? No.. that's not what the sense of a community is about. And as I said, no wonder most of the members have left..
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Re: The Mod-Log 2015: 12th March

Postby Dennis » 16 Mar 2015, 00:18

Mr.X wrote:
Hi Dennis.
Glad you got involved in this discussion. Again, this was not an attack on Jay and I have made that very clear.

I totally understand that this forum was built upon the intention of creating a safe haven to those who would like to comment on Spice-related things. Also, I totally understand that this forum has since expanded into other areas, throughout the years. But I wouldn't be ok with being 'behave like us or fuck off' as what I am trying to explain is that perhaps some forms of dealing with certain members might not be completely appropriate. I am not against the forum as a whole, but were you ever completely happy with every party you were a part of? Sometimes you can see things that you would like to change and propose that change.


The way you proposed that change (like implying you could potentially be warned and banned as well for trying to make a change) was way beyond construcitive though, which is why it raised such replies. I personally felt you were attacking both Jay and the the core of what I feel this forum is, and quite frankly, I thought you were a massive asshole, which is why I suggested you might as well leave. I'm glad to see now that this is not the case.

Mr.X wrote:Surely, if we want to create a safe environment, we also have to allow for discourse and disruption, try to understand it and work with it to try and convince them otherwise. Becca and Jays most recent posts are an illustration of this, clearly, and that was my intention here, as I have stated.

I come from a place that refutes notions of warnings and banning, and proposes dialogue for change. That is all I am getting at.


I help adults with learning difficulties for a living. Discourse and disruption, and working with situations and trying to get consensus and a reasonable decision, are my day to day job, I know how it's done. But DenDen is not life, but a hobby. And hobbies, you share with likeminded people. Just because it happens on the internet, it doesn't mean that it makes it more than what it ultimately is - a hobby. Let's say you want to join a firearm club, just to preach to members about how guns are wrong. Your intentions might be the best, your argumentation perfectly worded - but do you think you would be accepted as a member there?

To take it to forums: Let's say I join a feminist forum, solely to discuss how the bible says that a wife should obey her husband, cook good meals and keep the house clean. Do you think I would be met with discourse?
Or I join a football club forum and open a topic "Let's name 100 reasons why your biggest rival is better than your club". Do you think people would enjoy the new insight I would bring?

And where do we start the dialogue? We're going great lengths to prevent commercial spam on the forums. This is written by actual human beings who are paid a certain amount for each public post on a forum advertising product X. Should we start dialogues on how we're not THAT interested in kitchen cabinet offers and how they should find a better job that actually has a purpose? If yes: are YOU willing to discuss this with the 30 people who would do this per day if we let them, and also the 60 people who would complain about the topics about kitchen cabinets and the resulting discussion, driving them away from SG-topics? How is this different from keeping people out who OBVIOUSLY have nothing constructive to say in the context we built this forum on?

How is "Forever flopped because they had a worthless sack of sh*t like Mel C as a member" a valid, discussable opinion on a fucking FAN FORUM? It is meant to stir shit, by the content and also by how it was worded. Why should we bother with assholes like this in our spare time, on our hobby, when we have to deal with all these kinds of assholes on a day-to-day basis?

Seriously, I don't get why we should. It only benefits the people who solely sign up to annoy people, and with each and every reply, they get more fun out of it. They are not interested in discusssion, they're bored. I don't see ANY reason to keep such people here or even get into interaction with them. So, no. This is where I draw the line, this is supposed to be fun (it often isn't), and not a social experiment.

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